Once upon a time, when I was a young(er) preacher, I remember talking to an older man who had served as an elder in a couple of different congregations in his lifetime. He had seen churches rise, he had seen some fall, but most stayed in that religious limbo of neither growing nor dying.
I complained to him about a few things that I had heard were going on in other congregations – how people were fighting, taking over, developing factions, etc – and he gave me a piece of advice that I still remember to this day.
He looked me square in the eye, and said slowly but seriously, “You know what Brady? The thing that some churches need is a few good funerals.”
I was aghast! How could anyone suggest such a radical solution to a problem like this! After all, these are people’s souls were talking about! You can’t just give up on them!
Over time, as I’ve watched other congregations develop, I’ve begun to see the wisdom in his words, NOT that we need to encourage death, but that there are people that are so toxic and so destructive, that they will literally destroy your church from the inside out.
I don’t want these people to die and I don’t want them to go away, but there’s a very good reason that Paul advocated disfellowshipping in 1 Corinthians 5, as well as marking erring brethren in Romans 16:17-18: some people, if left unchecked, will eat your congregation up like a sumo wrestler in a buffet line.
And when we’re talking about people’s souls at stake – souls that could be lost by keeping someone like that inside the ranks – it becomes a matter of spiritual necessity that they are removed.
**Note: the purpose of disfellowship is not simply to remove them, but to remove them so they will better identify their ways and get back on track (1 Cor. 5:5). I wanted to make this point clear, lest anyone accuse me of being overly harsh.
One of the hardest parts of this process can be in identifying who these people are in the first place. Outside of a blatant sin, how can we know whether someone has the ability to destroy a congregation? And even if their actions are not worthy of disfellowship, it is still important to discern who these individuals are so we, or the elders, can correct them.
Here’s a list of the most common types of church-destroyers:
The Heretic
No surprise here; the person who stands up and spouts false doctrine needs to be handled immediately, without hesitation and without compromise, lest they persuade others to leave the faith entirely.
Paul rightly identified this spirit within Peter in Galatians 2, when he noticed that Peter only wanted to fellowship with the Gentiles when the Jews were gone – a hypocrisy that Acts 15 sought to correct. They were his brothers, after all, and the misguided religious judgment of a few Jewish yuppies should not have convinced him otherwise.
Paul pointed out the error of his way with one simple verse: “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” (Gal. 2:14). Touché,Paul the Apostle.
The text is careful to point out the fact that Paul did this publicly, A.K.A., in front of everyone and their buddies. Why? Because such a public sin, which had the ability to lead people astray, needed to be handled in a way that let that same audience know that it was wrong.
Harsh? Probably.
But necessary? Absolutely.
Other, possibly more private sins, are governed by Jesus’ words in Matthew 18:15-20, with the escalation of witnesses and judgment dependent on how stubbornly resistant the offender is, but there’s no getting around it: if there’s sin in the camp, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest it spread to others and affect the entire body (Joshua 7:10-13).
The Showboat
Ah yes, the one who just loves to have all the attention on themselves. This one isn’t hard to spot considering they’re usually front and center 24/7, and when they’re not in the spotlight, they’re busy tearing down the ones who are, while simultaneously talking about themselves, signing autographs, and hopping into their limo like a big shot.
Yeah, they’re not hard to spot at all.
Whenever something needs to be done, they are there. Whenever a spot in the public worship is vacant, they will absolutely step up. When a question is asked in class, they jump in front of twelve other people and shout them down, because after all, no one else’s opinions or comments matter nearly as much as theirs.
But keep in mind what the issue here is: the problem is NOT that they serve (that’s a great thing). The problem is NOT that they talk in class (also a great thing).
The problem is that their sole motivation for speaking and serving is to draw attention to themselves and how great they are. That’s it, that’s all they care about.
Nevermind the fact that other people might want to contribute in some way, the showboat is too busy reminding everyone that he’s the smartest person in the room, which means, by proxy, everyone else is not.
They’re the ones who “love the chief seats in the synagogue,” and they “love for other people to call them Rabbi” (Matt. 23:5-7), because, after all, isn’t the praise of men the same as the praise from God?
How does this person destroy a church? Simple: by treating the congregation as if it’s a one man show, they communicate to everyone else that they’re they only ones capable of righteousness. Pretty soon, people will start believing that about themselves, and they will simply fade into the distance.
These people are always up for a good fight, because their word matters most, sometimes even more than God’s (3 John 9-11).
They ostracize those that don’t agree with them, because the absolute worst thing that could happen is for someone else to have an equally valid viewpoint.
They want everyone in the church to know who’s in charge, which is them.
Ironic, considering they didn’t pay for it with their own blood (Acts 20:28).
The Complainer
Have you ever known someone that hated every single thing every other person ever did? They don’t care about finding solutions and they don’t care about other people’s issues, the only thing they care about is that the entire world notices how miserable they are.
It’s their identity, it’s who they are, and it almost seems like the more they complain, the more they will continue to complain, which they will, according to science.
Even worse, they feel like everything in this world is meant to serve them: the carpets need to match their tastes, the thermostat should be tailored to their comfort level, and if a sermon or class doesn’t seem applicable for whatever reason, well then they’re just gonna pack up shop and find someone who will preach what they like (Micah 2:11)!
But no matter how much of a complainer one person is, they have nothing on the multitudes in the wilderness during the Exodus. Nothing.
Imagine in your mind over two million people wandering around in the desert, complaining about this, complaining about that, complaining about everything. Nevermind the fact that God had just delivered them from slavery in Egypt using a series of supernatural plagues, parted a major water source for them to pass through, and annihilated the greatest army in the world to secure safe passage, they were upset because their breakfast was cold.
As humans, they had to eat, so God dropped food out of the sky for them (Exodus 16:4).
Not good enough.
They also had to drink, so God made water come out of a rock (Exodus 17:6; Numbers 20
Still not good enough.
How do you please someone like that? You can’t, and you can’t please the complainer either. The preaching will never be good enough, the building will never be as beautiful, the elders will always be lazy, and the complainer will always be persecuted.
The one characteristic that every complainer I’ve ever met in my entire life has in common is a fundamental lack of interest/ability/foresight/whatever to do anything for his or herself. It is a trademark of the complainers that they are always, without fail, the ones doing the least amount of work and expecting the most in return.
It doesn’t matter that they’ve never once had people in their home, everyone else is not hospitable. It doesn’t matter that they’ve never talked to others, everyone else is unfriendly. It doesn’t matter that they’ve never led singing, brother So-and-So should never set foot in a pulpit ever again.
And on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on it goes.
Murmuring destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness, and it will destroy your church if you let it.
The Matador
Bet you didn’t see that one coming!
A matador is the person who never speaks up, never argues, never contributes, and worst of all, never engages with the congregation that they are a part of. They simply stand to the side and shout a silent “Ole!” as the work passes right on by.
To be fair, some of this is innocent as much as it is destructive. Maybe the person doesn’t feel like they can help or have the resources to contribute much, but regardless, their presence (or lack thereof) is hardly noticed by the ones that they don’t speak to. It doesn’t mean they don’t love them, or are loved in return, but there’s just not much of a relationship to speak of.
A congregation of matadors will watch as the heretic’s teaching runs amok or as the showboat dominates every single situation, and will quietly slip out the side door so as not to “interfere.” They won’t necessarily do anything else to hurt the church, but they also won’t typically do anything to grow it as well.
They’re just kind of…….there.
It sounds harmless, but remember what Jesus said to the church at Laodicea, the ones who were “lukewarm”? He saw their bland state and vowed to “vomit” them out of His mouth because they were so distasteful to His palate (Rev. 3:16). Their state was one of complacency: they believed that they were fine the way they were, when in reality, they could not have been more wretched and miserable and blind and naked if they had tried.
Many brethren are like this. We don’t actively try to hurt the church, but we don’t try to improve it either. Instinctively, we think that the best thing we can do is sit on autopilot.
Jesus has a much different viewpoint. He lambasted the one-talent man in Matthew 25, not because he had so little, but because he refused to use what he had. By not engaging, he was working against his master’s cause (Matt. 12:30).
Christians are not supposed to live life on the sidelines. We are not supposed to sit by and watch as the events of the congregation, both good and bad, pass us by. We are called to throw our hat in the ring, to lace up the gloves, and spend fifteen rounds with the world, ducking temptation and jabbing at unGodliness using God’s Word.
We are called to be combatants, not spectators. A church full of the latter will almost certainly dwindle away, achieving nothing and losing everything.
It’s a sad way for a church to die, but unfortunately, it’s not the only one.
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Excellent points all. I’ve seen them in churches I’ve attended before, and I see them even now in a church my wife and I both really like. These same people also are destructive in the community, constantly complaining that the leaders in the community haven’t a clue (mainly because the leaders aren’t paying much ado to their comments). We also have those who are very adept at doing little or nothing, yet backbite others who are at least working to make the church body and/or the church building a little better each day. The sad thing is that sometimes that person is an elder, but even sadder are that the other elders won’t address the problem. My wife and I attended a church about 35 years ago in which the elders would stand up during the service time and “brag” how the Lord was working in their lives.. but all it really was, a given and captive audience that had to sit through their bragging as they were so impressed with what they were doing. 4 of us couples asked for a meeting with the pastor and the elders and addressed the concern as sensitively as we could, but with 20 minutes, 3 of the elders and the pastor were incensed… how dare we, the lay people, point out errors they were making. We had scripture to back up what we were saying, had written down the incidences that were of real concern to other church members, etc. Basically, within another 10 minutes, these 3 elders plus the pastor told us that we were no longer welcomed at that church, to leave immediately, and not ever to come back. We 4 couples stood in the parking lot discussing what had happened, then prayed about it, and went home. Over the next 3 days, we each had at least 30 phone calls from other church members to verify what had happened. That following Sunday, the church had less than half the members previously, as other families immediately started looking for a new church. We all found new church homes and continued to pray for the church we left. Within 6 months, the church ceased to exist as it basically boiled down to the preacher and the elders and their family members… but several of the wives were upset and threatened more than just leaving the church. To this day, that building has never had another church… small businesses have used it over time, but only about 50% of the building was ever in use at one time. Interestingly, we all have moved to other regions of the country, found good church homes, we still keep in touch a few times a year, and we all regret that the situation forced us to make the stand that we did… none of us really wanted to do it, but we felt we had to stand up for the Bible and what it pointed out for leaders and members. This story is an excellent example of how various types of personalities can pull a church down… and even a total community.
The minister in our tiny church is like this. We have no elders, only 20 folks show up on Sunday in a rural area. He makes all decisions, dispenses contribution as he sees fit. When a female commented that Paul was a chauvinist during Sunday school ( all men were long ago, but have learned to let women be equals) the next two Sunday’s we all had to listen to why Paul was an apostle. This female never questioned his apostle ship, only that he had similar views on women that most men did. We have more women than men, so we prefer to let the situation stand as is, or revert to the time when there was no minister at all.
Are you a denominational church? If so, contact the governing organization for your area or state, and lodge a complaint about this autocratic minister. If you are an independent church, then call a congregational meeting for all members and discuss the problem… if you have enough people to back your stance, then remove him as minister. If you allow him to bully you and the rest of the congregation, you are allowing this person to “rule” you, and that is not the purpose of a minister.
Thanks for the input. Our church is autonomous, we have no recourse. But we know we are to attend for worship, not to like the minister. I was mainly venting to share that even ministers can become despots. He always has justifications for what he does.
“Lord do you want us to call down fire from heaven on them? You don’t know what spirit you are of.” We don’t wrestle against flesh and blood… It’s a very carnal mindset that desires to see even the death of their enemies, much less someone that has strayed from the faith but remains in church. As far as booting someone for “spewing false doctrine”, you have three fingers pointing back at you when you point at someone for that. Most pastors don’t have the integrity to preach truth; they preach the doctrinal line so they get a paycheck and have lots of followers. Didn’t the master say “This is not how you are to do it.”? In Revelation he said two times “I hate the deeds of the nicolaitans.” This comes from two Greek words, “nico”, which means “conqueror”; and “laity” which is the average Joe in the congregation. He didn’t say “Go ye into all the world and make converts”; he said “Make Disciples!”. It’s a big investment to take someone under your wing for several years and teach them as your own child but that’s the model he gave. If we just ran church the way he said to, and didn’t do the things he said not to do, we wouldn’t be wondering what happened to God in our churches, but no, we want to do it our own way.
TO AVOID ALL THIS IN OUR CHURCH’S TODAY
READ AND TEACH THE WORD OF GOD VERSE BY VERSE
CHAPTER BY CHAPTER ,BOOK BY BOOK !!!!!!!!
KEEP THE SCRIPTURES IN THERE CONTEXT
CONTEXT IS KEY!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP PICKING VERSES ONLY YOU LIKE AND GIVING YOUR OWN
OPINION ON WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS
PREACHERS AND TEACHERS NEED TO OBEY THIS BASIC INSTRUCTION
TO READ AND TEACH
VERSE BY VERSE,
CHAPTER BY CHAPTER,
BOOK BY BOOK
THEN LET THE SPIRIT OF GOD DO THE INSTRUCTING!!!!!!!!
ON THE HEARTS THAT BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT IS FROM THE WORD OF GOD TO HEAR IT AND OBEY.
( LEAVE YOUR FEELINGS AND OPINIONS OUT OF GOD’S WORD)
ONLY GOD’S WORD CAN CHANGE THE HEARTS OF MAN
AND BE AWAKED TO THERE OWN SIN TO REPENT AND TURN AWAY
FROM THE SIN AND FOLLOW A BETTER PATH IN OBEDIENCE TO JESUS THE CHRIST OUR SAVIOR
YOU ONLY GET THAT FROM LEARNING GOD’S WORD VERSE BY VERSE!!!!!!!
Please do not type all caps… that is rude as it is considered shouting
Very well said Elizabeth. If a pastor does not have the integrity to use and teach the principals of hermeneutics then he should find another job. Apparent conflicts in Scripture must be resolved – or set aside until the Spirit can give the answer. Most, however, read the Scriptures through the lens of doctrinal bias and never see the actual truth.
Amen!
So far the responses only seem to strengthen the article and its points. We struggle as humans to not be these destructive types, they are in our sinful nature. As a Pastor I see these and others daily, there is always hope when we use Jesus as our guide to deal with any church disruption.
It was good to see this article as I became convicted of some examples of each in my own life. I do believe there are spiritual forces in our church(es) that feed and survive on these destructive tendencies. Just this morning I prayed for God to begin to reveal the hindrances to The Spirit and remove them so our church can truly come together and worship and learn in His Presence. I visited a church I used to attend last Sunday and it was so so good to be in a fellowship where the presence of God was discernible. It is my prayer for this to happen in my current fellowship.
Thank you it was a blessing for my life today I understood things that I didn’t understood before.
God bless
My husband and were part of church of about 150 believers. The “pastor” or head elder we learned believed something very different from the gospel.ie: Christ had already returned… This WAS eternity. I don’t know how he got in the position he was in,maybe by default. But when his heresy came to light people were aghast! We held a meeting of the whole congregation he was publically called out/ exposed. The elders had trouble deciding what to do. My husband and I have been in Lord many years and seen this before we knew he had to be,along his family put out of the Church in order to encourage repentance. They could not do it. Instead WE were shunned, told that WE DID love well. Love demanded discipline, but they could see it. 6 months later after we exited the church split in many different factions. But,they all agreed on one thing,they had this in common…WE did know how to love. Discipline requires MATURITY coupled with agape love. Love that leaves out your own personal’feelings” and puts love for the sinner as paramount.
As Elizabeth said, all the scriptures must be used to understand the meaning behind the words! Jesus gave a parable that the tares should be left in the field along with the wheat until the harvest; and that the angels would do the reaping and separating.
However, Paul also talks about how disagreements in the church should be handled. There is much practical wisdom from Paul towards the end of many of his epistles such as 1 Timothy 5:17-25. ” Verses 19 & 20 say, “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.” Presumably those that are sinning are in open sin, in defiance to God and the church.
For personal injustices, Jesus gives us counsel in Matthew 18:15-17 (right after the parable of the Lost Sheep) to start the reconciliation process one-on-one. Presumably it is done with true Christian love and concern just like the Shepherd went after the one lamb. Then if no resolution is reached, others are consulted (example). This is a process that will reveal whether the person is stubborn and unwilling to be counseled. This is way different from how Samson handled disagreements (non-example).
If you look in Genesis 4, it can be seen that first, God warned Cain of coming sin he should master. When God asked Cain where his brother was, his answer reveals that he had an attitude towards God. After God told him what his future life was going to be, he complained that someone might kill him. In mercy, God placed a mark of some kind on him so he would not be killed. Was Cain grateful? No! His response was that he left the presence of God and moved away. Would God have forgiven Cain? Of course, but he didn’t want forgiveness and didn’t ask for it!
Lamach had the very same stubborn and defiant attitude, even mentioning Cain’s 7x protection and boasting for himself protection 70 times 7 because he had killed a young man! Cain and Lamach’s attitude became the norm for their posterity, finally ending with the drowning of a whole rebellious society.
Go to the Word of God to test what is said and reason or motivation behind it.
Churches need balance with a mob of personalities.
Teach people to approach church as a classroom to understand the Word and hoe they need to use it in their lives.
Last, get rid of “solos” during praise and worship, sets the stage for the “me” attitude.
Keep it simple – praise God , thank Him and then teach the Word and how it applies to our lives.
Keep church short and get rid of overlapping home groups and such where a person would use as a platform for their own opinions.
Pare it down and soon those looking for a platform will disappear.
Great ideas to examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith; prove your own selves. 2 Corinthians 13:5
We cannot be timid when God’s Truth and His children are in jeopardy because of wolves in the church or out. We must have godly jealousy for our brothers and sisters and consider others better than ourselves. Philippians 2:3
Remember that God be True, though every man (including the guy or gal in the mirror) be proved a liar. Romans 3:4
It is too easy to trust a pastor, doctor, lawyer, or others in authority. We must always remember Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Jesus said, Man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God. Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4
Prove all things by God’s Word alone. Jesus said, If anyone will do God’s Will he/she will know of the doctrine.
All things are to be done in Love, with the desire to equip, build up, and protect. We must recognize that it is too easy for us to be the problem. Good news! Although we are the problem–Jesus is the Solution!
Please pray for me and the church I attend! I’m the Pastors wife and am dealing with a mixture of the four described! I’m not perfect and am glad when convicted although it hurts at first! I’m on my knees now praying for direction concerning all this! Thank you!
Praying for you , Ann, and your husband and the church members…
Ann, I have you now written into my prayer list that I pray for every day. Please know that I will be praying for you, your husband and the congregation. We are definitely living in the End Times. You know Who holds your hands and He is the Faithful One. Hope to see post of your prayers being answered. God’s richest blessings on you.
I’ll be praying for you and your husband, as well as the congregation of your church. May the LORD grant you both discernment in dealing with these people and the issues that they may cause in the church.
Ann, Jeremiah 1:5
God knew us before we were conceived in our mother’s womb, He formed us in the womb for a special person and consecrated us for a special work. So, trust.
I am lifting you up in prayer right now Ann. Human nature can be a vile thing. I pray for peace and guidance in this situation. In Christ, Mary
Please know you are not alone. Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy and those who believe the chapel is a safe place from his influence, think again. He looks for souls to devour and even if ours is bought and paid for, we influence many who are not so our slip up falls like a stone in the pond with a rippling effect all the way to the shore. Therefore, it is imperative that we pray for one another running the race.
Recently, I gleaned from Colossians ch 1, great words to remind us what to pray for in regards to one another.
I will add you to my prayers and look forward to meeting you, if not this side of the finish line, for sure at the winners circle. Keep running.
Keeping the Faith,
Tamra Kay Burr, MSW, GCM
i know the job of a pastor is difficult. As his spouse of course those things affect her and their kids, too. But in my church I’ve seen the opposite where the congregation fawns over the pastor (of 35 years) and his wife. The pastor is good at convincing the church (with some exceptions) that he’s above reproach…The thing is it’s hard for me to witness because I’ve seen and heard them both say things about certain church members they consider spiritually beneath them. The pastor pats himself on the back in every sermon, he brags about his family who can do no wrong, and he has even belittled testimonies from newer members who came out of ungodly lifestyles and into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. He said from the pulpit that the best testimony is to never have backslid or committed those offenses in the first place. Another way of patting himself on the back since everyone knows he was raised by a pastor father and godly mother, and got saved as a child, never going astray. Not everyone was raised by godly parents or spent their entire childhood in church as a pastors kid. Many were raised by horrible parents, maybe they didn’t know their dad, and were raised by single moms in poverty, sexually, verbally or physically abused, etc, and because of that they tried things to dull the pain. To me THEY have the greater testimony. Look at the obstacles they had to overcome to get where they are and usually they are the most humble of all, giving God the glory knowing what a “wretch” they once were. (As we all were to one degree or another) I respect the role of the pastor. People can be high-maintenance and cause the job of the pastor to be harder than it needs to be, but I see my pastor as a sort of bully, though I don’t discuss it with just anyone, the pastor says things that wound people, like making references to certain things that were told to him in confidence, suddenly coming out in the sermon the next Sunday, and might even mention things that give away that person’s identity. I’ve seen that happen too. Or pointing out a person in the congregation in an accusatory manner, without ever meeting with them in private to talk it over first which is what the Bible says to do. A pastor should NEVER just believe an accusation of a church member without verifying it first. Give that person a chance to defend themself. Even a criminal gets his day in court, something church members who’ve been misjudged or falsely accused often don’t get. The pastor is always in the role of authority so it’s extremely difficult to have a discussion with him because if you say anything then YOU are the troublemaker or the “Jezebel” or whatever, even if you have a legitimate concern. Sometimes when a split happens it’s not always the congregations fault. Sometimes it’s leadership that refuses to listen to someone whom they consider “beneath “ them spiritually when often it’s the humble member no one notices and doesn’t hold a position but might be God using that person to speak truth to the leadership. Remember the servant girl who told the leader to dip in the water to get cured of leprosy? She was the only one brave enough to speak up. Everyone deserves a chance to be heard. If they truly are simply there to cause trouble then pray that God will deal with them, but to just ignore legitimate concerns that others might see but turn a blind eye, is not right. Some pastors act like they’re above reproach because they ‘re a pastor, but the Bible says teachers (all pastors are teachers) will be judged by an even stricter standard. It’s just what I’ve seen in the church I’m in, making the point that sometimes it’s not the members harassing the leadership, it can actually be the opposite but no one wants to speak up and when someone does, THEY are often not listened to then branded troublemakers for speaking the truth. Try staying in a church where you’ve respectfully met with the pastor and voiced a concern and nothing has changed except that now YOU are a troublemaker for saying anything that wounded the pastors pride or ego. I’ve seen wounded people that really loved God leave because of things like that and now aren’t in any fellowship because of it. And the pastors aren’t seeking them out as the Bible says to do. He’s scattering the flock and doesn’t seem to even notice. He’ll talk about you to other members and then you’ll be ignored by people that were once friends because they’ve only heard it from him and won’t be honest with you to hear your side of what REALLY happened. Maybe a pastor or his spouse will read this, and realize they are NOT perfect and are in just as much need of grace as the person who might be sitting in the last row in the balcony who doesn’t hold a position and isn’t front and center but loves God and might have the humblest heart in the congregation. Only God knows the heart ❤️ and His opinion is the ONLY one that counts. God says he hates self-righteousness. Remember the two that stood before God, one bragging about how he does everything right and how he doesn’t sin like those other people and the other beating his chest over the things he’s done wrong, asking forgiveness. Who did God exalt? The one who was genuinely sorry for all the things he’d done. Better to be exalted by God than by man.
My husband and I belong to a church with leadership that will not water down the Bible – I love our church – love the people. My first prayer every morning is for our leadership team and that has made a big difference in my life. For a while I was near someone who complained constantly and it was affecting how I felt. When I began praying daily for the leadership team, I saw the strength in their guidance and their commitment to God’s Word. I was able to talk calmly with the complainer and it soon stopped.
Wow! I was really surprised to read both this article and the comments. Romans talks about how each of us belong to the othersm and Jesus tells us to love one another. I’m not seeing much love in the article or the comments.
Instead of trying to “make” people be like they’re supposed to be, I’ve found it best to pray for them and for myself. For myself to see them the way God does and that He would should me BETTER solutions . . . Loving solutions.
One of the amazing things about being part of the body of Christ is that we are all so DIFFERENT! Without the Holy Spirit we would never come together. Those differences are a testimony of God’s work in our lives.
Sandy, I don’t understand your comment about comments being negative, all I seem to recall is people praying for things to be better. The article simply points out that we do have problems in our churches today and we have destructive personalities as well as blessing personalities. You cannot solve a problem unless your first recognize it, and you can’t fix a problem until you recognize it. All of the Apostles wrote letters addressing some of these same issues being mentioned here, so are you saying the Apostles were wrong to write their Epistles warning those churches that they were not doing what God and Jesus intended for them to be doing. We all struggle to do what is right in God’s eyes and we know that we fail every day in some things, but we continue to pray for His guidance, and we have prayer chains to help us as well. I personally find your statement a bit sanctimonious, as I would expect from a Pharisee… We are ALL sinners, only perfect one on earth was crucified for our sins. We are not to be different in ways that keep other people from seeing the Love of God. Personalities differ, yes they do, but we are not good church members if we fit the mold on any of the 4 mentioned in the article. I’m an old codger, been a Christian for over 60 years, and I’ve yet to get through a day without being a thorn to someone. Love yes, condone bad behavior NO. John the Baptist is a hero of mine, as he had no problems letting people know how they failed. The Apostles pointed out bad behavior and how their churches were not a good example for others to follow… we are worse today than they were back then, and that was foretold centuries ago. Before you judge someone else about the splinter in your eye, best you worry about the log in yours… yeha noha
Sorry, mis-typed that last statement…
Before you judge someone else about the splinter in their eye, best you worry about the log in yours… But to really draw your attention to these destructive types… read Rev chapter 2 and chapter 3 These 2 chapters are God’s warning to the churches. We, as Believers, are told to standfast in what we are to believe and how we are to act, but we are also admonished if we don’t deal with the destructive nature of those among us who are not doing God’s work or God’s directives… these 4 mentioned in the article above are not working for God, they are working for themselves by their destructive behavior… and Believers are to not condone (political correctness) but to deal with that destructive behavior… yes we are to do it in a loving manner, but we do not adjust what God expects of us, we do not apologize for what God has directed us to do. Being luke-warm was anathema to Jesus.
Ann,
My prayer is that you may have hope through patience and find encouragement through the Scripture. May the God of patience and encouragement grant you to be like minded with one another in Christ Jesus so that with one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Romans 15:4-5 And that you are respected and esteemed with the greatest love because of your work. 1 Thes 5:12-13 God bless you! You are loved!
As Christians, at times we all have some of these four behaviors mentioned as we still have a sin nature and despite the presence of the Holy Spirit and when we are in fellowship with the Lord, we should display the ‘fruit'(not fruits) of the Spirit Paul mentions in Galatians 5:22-24. and I believe we know when we are being led by the Spirit or being led by human nature…I know I can tell the difference in my life…I find myself many times being critical instead of praying for people or circumstances…Having said that, I’ve found that my day is much more pleasant when I get up and as a former Pastor said..Say..Lord, this is Robert, reporting for duty…Give me wisdom to allow you to direct every action, word and thought I have today and remind me when I get in the way..Amen..
Great topics. Sure I will take you in prayer for now just give thanks unto the lord for your answered prayers.
You are in my prayers and may God give you the strength and all necessary to be the vessel you are called to be
Heavenly Father I pray for Ann, her family and her church. Father let the veil of forgiveness fall on those who need it and those who need to forgive. Lord bless those in the search who need to work to lift up the church. Amen
Amen.
I was in a church that finally split. I call those people the devil’s advocates. I got caught in the middle of it. The people in the church had been praying for three years that either the pastor would quit or God would remove him. I know this does not pertain to your case but it was amazing watching the Holy Spirit work. We had an educational director that was a man of God. The pastor would not look at him after he met him, because he could see God in him. It took a lot of time that God worked, but in the end the pastor was removed. During that time I watched the people and how horrible they acted. The meetings were so sicking. I asked the Lord one day on my way home how could I deal with a woman and the words came to me Ms. Packman. I said Lord do you have a sense of humor. So I thought what does packman do. He eats power pellets. So what am I feeding her. Conversation. So the scriptures say Na or Yea anything more comes from the evil one. She would back you up against the wall and demand from you. So I said yes or no. It didn’t take long for her to leave me alone. The minister was put out due to his advances and the church was never the same. It wasn’t just him, there we certain control figures that were destroying the church. The Educatiinal Director was asked to be interim, and those individuals drove him crazy. When they got a new pastor he left and went back to his parents in Texas. He had a family. He came back and got his degree in Hebrew and became a minister. I found out when Jesus is in the church (spirit filled believers) the devil comes in. That’s the destruction you are seeing. When the church is flowing ok then the devil doesn’t need to do anything. Sounds like that’s what is going on. The battle is not your’s it belongs to God. Sounds like you are trying to do the battle. Relax and untighten your shoulders and give it to God. Sending prayers. We all have the battles you do and I send my blessings to you and your husband. It has got to be tough to do what you two do. Not many of us could fill your shoes. One thing God has shown me is your never alone. He always sends someone to you. He is faithfu.
Amen, Janice, God is faithful and He has sent the Holy Spirit to help us and guide us… prayer is absolutely the key but we have to remember that we first pray that we are working within His Word, but we are to call out the Devil who can take any form or shape within the world, including those who sit in a church. I was once reminded long ago by an old woman in the first church I attended (never went to church until I accepted Christ)… her words “sitting in a church no more makes you a Christian than sitting in a garage makes you a car”…
The failure of most church going believers is obedience. We know God’s Word but do not do God’s Word and give Glory to God. We are so interested in ourselves that God is not Glorified. We have forgotten that God died for that person who we have grown to see as the problem in the church and even out of the church. How many people have told another person how to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior since they believed 20 or 30 years ago? A church that starts looking in, instead of looking out, will hear the truth but will not do the truth. That church will die but still take up offerings on Sunday and pay the bills.
People don’t change much. The can add or eliminate which brings about change, but God changes hearts. Prayer is still the best activity.
Good Morning Ann, another beautiful Sunday morning to Praise, Worship, and Proclaim God’s unmistakable Grace. Ann, our church was suffering about 10 years ago with one particular person in our church. She was the sum total of anyone wanting to put a wedge in our beloved church. Fortunately she left after causing years of “problems.”
So, we understand vividly how the devil can use a professed Christian to cause turmoil in a church body. I pray you can use the prayers that are being lifted for you and your church.
Prayer Changes Things, for sure. PTL always!!
If you read the Bible closely, especially the Old Testament, you will soon realize that God uses the most unlikely people to do important things, like Abraham, Moses, David, almost all of the old prophets, etc. Most were not the beautiful, nor the most winsome in manner. Does it not say that if a shepherd loses a sheep, that he goes after that sheep while leaving the herd?? God confounds man time and again because God sees through all pretense while man becomes enamored of the wrong things. The church that fawns over the pastor rings true in a lot of churches. Our old pastor retired (we really miss him) while the elders brought in a new pastor who is full of himself. He rarely stays around the church during the week and does not get involved with anything except his sermons on Sunday. He does not know about 70% of the people who attend (and we are not a big church). In fact, all 3 of our pastors live in their own little world and they do have their favorites, mostly those who have money and influence in the community. We have been praying for a solution, but it appears that several of us will be leaving this church to find one that is closer to what a real church is supposed to be.